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Industrial Carnage by jollyjack Industrial Carnage by jollyjack
"guns don't kill people, people kill people" is a poor argument.
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CampionSayn Featured By Owner Jan 8, 2016
Plastic Applause Plastic Applause Plastic Applause Plastic Applause Plastic Applause This is so accurate I wanna cry. Good for you. Bravo 
rtpoe Featured By Owner Dec 3, 2015
I'm wondering if I should update this -… - given that I'll probably have to update it again every few weeks....
videakias Featured By Owner Jan 7, 2016
just a question,how many people where robbed or raped under the threat of a gun without being neither injured nor killed?
Wartsila Featured By Owner Nov 30, 2015
The clue is in the name. Amendment.
Prohibition was also an amendment but it did not work so it was changed

agentjx Featured By Owner Aug 15, 2015
Excellent point. The only reason guns are needed for self-defense is because of other guns.
The-Antihero-Oookami Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2015  Student General Artist
Finally! Someone who gets it.
squarenuts Featured By Owner Apr 16, 2015
Because its a false argument. Generated by governments that have to deal with citizens that have access to firearms. But not to worry, drone technology has made the handgun / rifle obsolete. (and we won't make the same mistake on who will have access to those)
Zalleus Featured By Owner Mar 22, 2015
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people!. People like me! People with guns."

-Star Spangled Bastard, Cyanide and Happiness show, "Meaning of Love"
daegann Featured By Owner Mar 22, 2015  Hobbyist Writer
You right. And for all people that argue that there is other way to kill. You can say "Hey, Ballistic missile don't kill people, it's the guy that push the button... So let's everyone have the right to buy a ballistic missile, right, anyway there is other way to kill people so it mustn't be a problem to give them mass destruction weapons, right?"

In other word, yes, guns is not the only way to kill. Yes, people can kill with, axe, knife, or cars... But well... first guns are made to kill or wound and have no other purpose. But even that is not the main argument. The fact is that guns are a way too fast and easy way to kill. Way too easy to hide, way too easy to take aime and kill at distance without thinking about what you did before it's too late. Way too easy for someone who fear other's reaction to pull a trigger even if there is no real theat, way too easy for a drunk guy to take aim on the guy who make him angry... etc.  Try to apply the same statement for an axe...
elckhunter Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2015
Honestly it is not I can set a gun down fully loaded and ready to go it will not move until some one mess is with it guns don't kill stupid people with guns kill people
Beretta249 Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2014
Hey look, logic!
x-SkaiGuardian-x Featured By Owner Dec 6, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
Funny how if a guy kills someone with a hammer, or a bat, or chops his head off with an axe, or strangles him with a chain, or poisons him with cyanide, or runs him over with a car, or drowns him in a pool, the PERPETRATOR is held responsible. But if a gun was used, the crime was apparently commited because he had a gun, not because he had evil intent or anything.

A gun does nothing with no one using it, empty, loaded, or sitting muzzle-down in a can of baked beans.

PS, one could pull a GTA using a car and kill/injure people by ramming them on the sidewalk much faster than aquiring and firing using a gun.
No one, not even insane liberal idiots, deny that the perpetrators is responsible when they use any object, including guns, to hurt people.
However, guns are weapons, tools designed to hurt other people as effective/efficiently as possible.
True a gun does nothing when nobody uses it. But neither do grenades, claymores, and nukes. Yet we keep those things out of the way of most people. (I'm pretty sure cyanide is illegal to buy).
GTA is a poor comparison for the real world in this aspect.

Really, the problem IS people. Specifically, people who should not be owning efficient killing devices. The real goal is to keep guns away from them, so they cannot hurt others as easily. Banning guns outright may be overboard, but the intention is to prevent tragedy. 
x-SkaiGuardian-x Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
But the problem faced involving firearms in the US is that there's too many out there, legal or otherwise. (Not to mention the 2nd Amendment being a hinderance for politicians who want to do away with them.) Criminals and ill-intentioned people will find a way to get killing devices, whether it's knives, guns, poison, or otherwise, whether they're illegal or not. There's the black market as well, dudes selling full-auto MACs or AKs from the trunk of a car for mere hundreds of dollars a pop. Of course it's illegal on so many levels, but that doesn't stop them.

Plus I'm pretty sure criminals are not going to turn in their arms if all guns are outright banned. Any potential laws banning guns from private ownership do not do anything to get guns out of criminal hands. They only handicap those that obey the law. I personally want to be equally or better armed than anyone who tries to cause me harm, be it with a gun as well, a knife, a mace, or anything. Whoever is better armed controls the fight. Look at interviews of inmates jailed for burglary or robbery. Their number one fear is for their potential victim to be armed.

As for explosive/destructive devices, well, that's just silly to try to compare, because they aren't firearms (with a couple exceptions). Didn't stop McVeigh. Anyone with chemical knowledge can make HME, but it's not often anyone does.

As for the GTA thing, I said it could be done, not that it was likely. Though people killed in car accidents alone outweigh deaths with firearms of all sorts. (And the statistics don't show how many of those deaths were citizens protecting themselves, so that doesn't help either.)
darkenedwindow Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2014
Illegal black markets will always be there, but generally they are more inconvenient than the grey market, like gun shows and internet sites. Just because these markets can still be accessed, doesn't mean they shouldn't be made harder to get to. As for legal means, they should be made so normal citizens can get guns, but crazies will be turned away.

Materials for explosives are pretty closely monitored; buying too much of a material commonly used for bomb-making will alert authorities. In addition, the getting the knowledge and materials is inconvenient compared to obtaining a gun through the grey market.

Guns and gun ownership should be kept track of at least like cars. Need to show you're mentally capable and have the skills to use a gun properly for its purpose. 
x-SkaiGuardian-x Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
Gun shows and sites on the net still require going through background checks if it isn't a private sale. Dealers have to, by law, background check the buyer. With websites, they HAVE to ship to an FFL dealer, who conducts said background check. If it doesn't come back OK, they are legally denied the sale. If the FFL sells to them anyway, they are breaking the law, and risk losing their license.

I definitely agree that crazies shouldn't get ahold of guns, or anything that can be used as a weapon for that matter. But then comes, who's to say what is crazy; some will legitimately define it where someone is actually mentally unstable, while others will try to take it to the extreme and make a Catch 22 out of it (i.e. you must be paranoid because you want to buy a gun for self-defense, but if you don't feel like you need to buy a gun, then you're mentally stable).

While in some concepts, firearms registration is similar to a car registration, it is not completely comparable. You don't have to register your car, and you CAN drive on public roads with it if it isn't. You'll just get in HUGE trouble with the police and DMV. Also to note, your car is impounded (confiscated) AFTER you break certain laws.

I personally think the whole registration of firearms is pointless when it comes to preventing crimes. It only serves to show who has what and where they reside. If the owner suddenly decides to snap, the registration does not prevent him from doing so, nor does it stop him from carrying out an act of violence. It also does nothing to stop someone from stealing his firearm, which then is unaccounted for, and much easier to hide and harder to track down than a car.

It DOES however make it easier to confiscate arms from legal owners as people in charge see fit (such as Canada did for a couple decades, constantly changing what weapons could or couldn't be owned and confiscating them for no compensation, to my knowledge at least; I don't know too many Canadian gun owners). Basically they can say, "We know you haven't done anything wrong, and you might not have any intent to, but because you CAN, we're going to take these away." It's the equivalent of treating all males like sex offenders because they have penises. (A bit exagerated, I know, but best example I could pull out of my head at the moment.)

Either way, there's too many guns out there, legal or not, to be able to go through and register all of them. I personally will not support it, not only because it's pointless, but also because the hidden intent isn't to disarm criminals, it's to disarm average citizens. The purpose of the 2nd Amendment was definitely not for hunting, but for the security of a free state, from enemies foreign and domestic alike. Anyone telling you otherwise is lying or misinformed. The government is to represent the people that elected them. When they fail at that, we vote someone else in. When they try to stay by force, that's when we are to fight back. (Look up the Battle of Athens, TN when you get the chance.)

On the level of stopping crimes, less "gun free zones" would be a start. This translates to "no one here is armed" to criminals. "Field day." "Easy pickin'." "No one can shoot back." Anything along those lines does increase likelyhood of being held up with any weapon, let alone a gun. Allowing conceal carry would help too (even with licenses). Potential robber in TX: "Anyone in this store could be armed… do I really want to take my chances over a couple hundred dollars?" Potential robber in NY: "CCWs are impossible to get here… and law enforcement is at least fifteen minutes away… good thing…" Conceal carry doesn't turn places into the wild west; just look at places that allow it. School shootings? It's been said for so long; train and arm teachers, principals, guards, police officers, anyone that works on campus. Not only does the knowledge of armed good guys discourage anyone who would rampage, but in the event that it does happen, it can be stopped right away, instead of having to wait for several minutes for police to come and stop the guy.

Sorry for the long reply, I just like discussions and rants. :D
darkenedwindow Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2014……
The top link is a humor website, I know, but I think its points are largely valid. Some other articles on the issue is worth a read as well.

I'm glad you agree about making it harder for "crazies" to get guns. I meant mental disease, criminal history, etc. But the Catch-22 situation is very unlikely, given likely public outrage against such a policy.

I think that registration, or some other policy, should be designed more to control the transfer/sale of weapons, rather than weapons that are in ownership. Indeed, what owners do with their weapons is hard to control, but cutting off ways for potential ill-intentioned owners to obtain guns is something that can and should be done.

"Hidden intent" sounds like paranoia. Sure, some people feel safer if nobody owned guns, but really, the intent is to stop bad guys from having them.
The Battle of Athens was almost 60 years ago. Politicians will always try to screw people over, but this was an extreme case. Nowadays, armed siege is generally not the most prudent way to deal with political problems. The 2nd Amendment was created in a time when firearms couldn't kill 10+ people in seconds, and homes were threatened by Native Americans and wild animals, and reliance on militias for protection.

Gun-free zones do seem somewhat dumb. However, arming everybody isn't a great idea either. I would rather not have shootings resulting in firefights. There's definitely a solution for this too, but its beyond me.

nah its fine, I like it too. It's good to re-examine stances every once and a while.
PercyPo Featured By Owner Oct 21, 2014  Student Filmographer
Better statement of logic:

"Evil people kill people with anything they can get their hands on."

Take away guns, and they'll break out the knives, grenades, poison, bare fists, water, carbon monoxide, hell f*ckin baseball bats.

Take away guns, and you tell me how many people in Detroit Michigan who AREN'T criminals are gonna have a backup defense.

Take away guns and you tell me how you're gonna defend yourself against a 7 foot muscle man who breaks into your house to rape and kill the wife and kids. Heck maybe even the man of the house.

Take away guns and you tell me how that's going to stop the illegal distribution of them.

Criminals will ALWAYS get their hands on their drugs and guns no matter HOW illegal they are. God you people and this argument are so ignorant to those who might feel a little safer in their home at night by having one. Sheesh.
darkenedwindow Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2014
There doesn't just exist two options: "banning guns outright" and "letting everyone have guns"
The middle option "letting only people who will use guns properly obtain guns through legal and proper means"

The impression that gun control = banning guns entirely has prevented productive progress in preventing people who should be having guns from acquring them. Teenagers with mental disease can still easily buy firearms from gun shows or the internet with no background checks.

In addition, the possibility of people obtaining dangerous things illegally is no excuse to make them easier to obtain in general. For example, just because kids can get their hands on alcohol doesnt mean liquor stores shouldn't ask for IDs. Dealing the firearm black/grey market is legitimate thing that should be done.

Scenarios like the 7-foot muscle man are too idealized.
PercyPo Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2014  Student Filmographer
Obviously we should make sure psychopathic nuts can't buy weapons. I agree with that.

But, like any other seemingly "intelligent" view, limitation on who could purchase weapons has a high chance of leading up to an outright ban. It starts small and grows subtly.

And no, that is a very realistic, possible situation.


I recommend reading that link. Gun control allows criminals to feel more confident in their capabilities. Because, just like when alcohol was banned back during the Prohibition, people STILL participated in consuming it illegally.

If guns are limited, they will eventually be banned, which will lead to civilized people being killed faster than ever before.
darkenedwindow Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2014
That's a slippery slope if I ever heard one. Any gun control -> gun ban. It's like gay marriage -> ****ing with animals or taxes -> communism. Or a less extreme, driving licenses -> automobile ban.
Your link still seems to mostly address outright bans or similiar policies. 

Fear of outright bans should not keep people from working toward a solution that would make it harder for psychopathic nuts to get weapons, WHILE at the same time allowing normal citizens to obtain and own guns.
PercyPo Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2014  Student Filmographer
I don't know where you got the first part from, but I'll word this in a more simple way so you get it.

Stricter gun limitations have the potential to lead to an outright ban. I'm not saying that's EXACTLY what would happen, but there is a high chance. Especially when you live in a country with total marxist/socialist/communist leaders.

And last I checked, the liberals usually scream "OUTRIGHT BAN!!" I hear very few talk about finding a happy medium (which I'm all for.) My point, is that depending on "who's in charge" will affect the degree that the limitations are brought to.

And since it seems like you misunderstood me, I just said, that I'm all FOR preventing nutcases and underage idiots from getting weapons. All I WAS saying, is that the chances of guns becoming completely banned are higher if restrictions ARE enacted because of who is LEADING America.

I must applaud you though. Usually in these types of debates, lunatics ramble on nonsensically about how "evil" guns are. Yeah. When the Saudi Arabia wackos come to kill us all, I'll let you stand on the front lines with your "peace talks." We'll see how far that gets ya.
darkenedwindow Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2014
Glad we can agree.
Luckily, the US isn't completely corrupt, and still has semblance of democracy. It's doubtful a communist would get elected, and if he did and tried something like sweeping gun bans, he'll meet really heavy opposition. Checks and balances, America, fuck yeah...sort of.
I think some reasonable policy will be passed....eventually.

C'mon, Saudi Arabia, of all countries? At least be more realistic and say Uzbekistan or New Zealand. I'm sure those fuckers hate us.
Willy2664 Featured By Owner Sep 13, 2014  Student Traditional Artist
it is the true man. No matter what hey say, the humans are the only plague in this planet, and I hope that we all get exterminated as soon as posibble.
sorry, but I hate the humanity.
TheSavageChicken Featured By Owner Nov 23, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Do not judge the individual by the many, nor should you judge the many by the individual.
Each person is responsible for their own choices, therefore we should only judge the individual by his own merit.
Humanity is not, on the whole, evil. there are only some who decide to do evil only to further their own goals.
Hate begets more hatred, thus love begets more love.

Choose to love others as you would love yourself, and the world just might end up a better place...

go see a therapist.
Willy2664 Featured By Owner Nov 24, 2014  Student Traditional Artist
Thank you for open my eyes.
what you wrote was phoetic.
Thank you.
TheSavageChicken Featured By Owner Nov 29, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
you're welcome =D
ThatKinder Featured By Owner Aug 16, 2014
Problem I saw was never whether people with guns kill, but who was carrying them, and who gets killed.
Interesting statistic:
The average number of deaths in a shooting stopped by the police:13
The average number of deaths in a shooting stopped by an armed Civilian:3
Ice-Dragon220 Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2014  Student
Its not a poor argument. Where I come from, guns dont cause world violence. Ignorance, greed, hatred, fear, mental illness, and abuse of powers is the culprit.
PercyPo Featured By Owner Dec 7, 2014  Student Filmographer
A3Vampire-fangs Featured By Owner Oct 29, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
It's too true :iconsadplz: too true
Fichtre Featured By Owner Sep 8, 2013
i like your style. marry me.
BondoFox Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
As the song goes,

"Now I take second place to the motor car
In the score of killing kept thus far
And just remember, if you don't mind
It's not the gun that kills but the man behind"
mangaanime Featured By Owner Aug 20, 2013
Just right!
A gun is just a tool to make it easier. :hmm:
Haeth Featured By Owner Jul 3, 2013
I consider myself to be both pro-gun and pro-gun control. I just wish the arguments for BOTH sides weren't so childish.

If we *America* are going to go through with Gun Control, there are better ways than bans and national registries. But if we really wanted too we could outlaw all firearms, we simply need to be ready for the fallout that would occur afterwards.

Until we can make up our minds, I'll keep a-hold of my firearms, and keep teaching people about firearm safety.
capnhands Featured By Owner Jun 15, 2013
see how good gun control worked in the UK
capnhands Featured By Owner Nov 12, 2013

if you think Australia is better off banning guns…

jollyjack Featured By Owner Jun 16, 2013
Heh. I do like the hysteria-generating US news clip.
"For the first time ever, 'Bobbies' are carrying firearms."
Starting with the Metropolitan Police back in 1829, they've always had access to firearms, though they were never issued except under extreme circumstances. From 1948 onwards, there have always been armed police on patrol. There presence was actually reigned in from 1970, and brought under further control in 1991, with armed response units only patrolling key areas or awaiting rapid deployment.
There are guns in Britain, but the penalties for being caught with one make it less likely for them to be carried. The “body armour” the ever-misleading news-clip mentions is a stab-proof vest, not bullet-proof armour. Knife-crime is way higher than gun-crime.
capnhands Featured By Owner Jun 16, 2013
gonna ban knives next?
jollyjack Featured By Owner Jun 16, 2013
You logically cannot ban something that has a useful, day-to-day purpose.
capnhands Featured By Owner Jun 16, 2013
I saw the laws posted up next to silverware sets in the UK. Someone under 18 can't buy silverware? Crazy.
wolffang719 Featured By Owner Jun 15, 2013
John Freeman, saver of humans.
Jerepasaurus Featured By Owner Jun 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Dude. This.
You have no idea how relieving it is to see someone that thinks this way too.

Guns: Their only reason for existing is to kill things.

So few people seem to want to admit that...
Caradoc88 Featured By Owner Jun 11, 2013
Please go live in downtown Chicago for a year and tell me if you still think the same way. LA works too.
Etharion Featured By Owner May 12, 2013
Here here Jack!
XD190 Featured By Owner May 10, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
a gun is a tool. people abuse tools. from waving a stick around at brother Abel just because Cain was angry with him, to whole super powers (technically, but not really including north Korea..) threatening each other with nukes. it is strange, all this has happened before, and will happen again. but i have yet to see people be grossly irresponsible and plainly stupid with portable microwave generators.... (i mean Lasers.)
bobbylegs37 Featured By Owner May 8, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
"The only thing that can stop a bad man with a gun is a good man with a gun." Better?
Pyrokitsune777 Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
I agree Jolly Jack It is a poor argument. Even though I defend The Bill of Rights, constitution, and Civil Liberty to my dying breath, the single phrase argument "Guns don't kill people, people do" is ineffective in the manner it's normally used.

The statement should be used as a reminder that it's the person behind the gun that's the killer not the tool that they use. Most of the Anti-Firearms lobbyist and public speakers all to often try to divorce the killer from his tool and present the tool as the sole means of the tragedy.
RHJunior Featured By Owner Apr 10, 2013  Professional Artist
How about "they also let us STOP people killing people."

Bah. Guns are useless against crime. That's why police carry them. Right?
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