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“Why don’t you launch a Kickstarter campaign?”
“Have you heard of Patreon?”
“Why doesn’t your site have a Donate button?”

Put simply, I have this (evidently archaic) opinion that; if you want to make money, you have to do the work first. I don’t like the idea of taking money off people unless they get something for it immediately, not [insert timeframe here] down the line. It feels like a scam. That’s why I produce all those cheap digital comics: to finance my larger projects (and which is why I get pissed off when I find them being distributed freely online, because it slows everything down).

Even for large projects, like video-games that only have a niche audience and which big publishers won’t ever assist: I don’t see crowd funding as a particularly good way to go about getting production capital. I prefer the early release approach, such as that Mojang took with Minecraft.
No complete product? Give the people something else. A little booklet of concept art, for example. Little products to finance big ones.

I always keep in mind the approach that a company called Mastertronic took back in the C64 days: they made lots of little games and sold them at pocket money prices. It worked brilliantly.
Make something small, sell it cheaply and reinvest the money in a slightly bigger endeavour. That’s how it’s done.

Obviously I’m very, very thankful toward people offering to throw a little coin my way, but I’m only going to accept your cash if you’re buying something from me, otherwise I’ve no right to take it.
Likewise, if you do have a burning desire to support an artist or a team, I don’t want to dissuade you. But I just feel that Kickstarter and its like are part of this growing sense of self-entitlement that seems to be settling over the world, and it’s not a good thing.

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:iconthe-third-guy:
the-third-guy Featured By Owner Jul 25, 2014
Couldn't agree more!
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:iconriwini:
riwini Featured By Owner Mar 26, 2014  Professional Writer
Yeah, buying something but not getting anything doesn't feel right. Kind of like gambling, but in reverse. That makes sense, lol.
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:iconpenrethro:
penrethro Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2014
I find myself going out of my way to read all your journal entries anytime i go through the 300+ submissions i go through every week or so, and this is why- every time there is one it was/is worth reading, you have a concise point and stick to the subject matter, it's brilliant and great to see something with substance rather than "hey guys, i've had a headache lol!" Thanks for being a bloody great all round chap, JJ.
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:iconcorgiburgre111:
CorgiBurgre111 Featured By Owner Mar 22, 2014  Student General Artist
I do the same thing. Most of the news I get, I get from jollyjack's journals or word-of-mouth.
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:iconjollyjack:
jollyjack Featured By Owner Mar 18, 2014
Glad you enjoy 'em. I have fun writing this stuff :D
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:icongemmillw:
gemmillw Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2014
Well said penrethro; Always love your journal entries jollyjack, deviant art is a great pace to kill time, it is gratifying to gain some insight while meandering through these pages.  Cheers brother and happy Saint Pattie's Day to boot!
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:iconphantomfraggmentor:
PhantomFraggmentor Featured By Owner Mar 8, 2014
The United States president promised "change", did he not?
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:iconnova225:
Nova225 Featured By Owner Mar 7, 2014
CHANGE!!! YOU GOT CHANGE?!! AW, COME ON! HELP A GUY OUT, WILL YA?! C'MON, CHANGE!
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:iconcyrad:
cyrad Featured By Owner Mar 7, 2014
Mr. Jack, successful crowdfunding often require working products.

I've done research about crowdfunding for my game projects. Launching a successful Kickstarter campaign requires an incredible amount of work. In order for the success of your Kickstarter, you have to generate a huge following for your project. To do that, you need something to show and give to the public. On top of it, you have to do this before your Kickstarter campaign, which is why many campaigns fail. Many people believe that simply putting the project on Kickstarter will magically generate publicity and funding. This is not how it works. If you don't do the work ahead of time, your campaign will fail.

There's exceptions, of course. If you already have a huge following or a reputation, then you can get your Kickstarter funded. I agree there's people abusing their fanbase. It's one of the reasons I despise almost anything from Katbox. I wish I could be paid 80 bucks to draw a crappy reference of my own character.
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:iconjojo-again:
jojo-again Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
wow jack,
I didn't know you had such strong view on that matter.
I have a new found respect for you.................. not that I didn't respect you before, just more now
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:iconelemental-fury:
elemental-fury Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2014
That's a really negative way of looking at it.

The positive way of looking at it.

The artist wants to make the work the best he can, but he doesn't have the time to spend on the project.  In order to get the time, needed to work on the project he needs money since time is money.  Or an even simpler way of looking at it.  You need money to make money, so if there's enough of a demand for what you're making why not let the people who want to help you, help you.
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:iconchickenkai:
ChickenKai Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2014
How I see it, kickstarter is more like professional route. It is something to take after gaining experience and skills through these smaller works. Even if those works might be a bit ''dull'' because it is part of the training. Even doing something you like requires a lot of ''dull'' tasks to do.
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:iconmyrksuki:
MyrkSuki Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2014
Yes your view is archaic. I would say with piracy your new gate is no longer distribution but creation, and people will be buying into your idea rather than your product. And with that just find straight into the idea you want, instead of dancing around with smaller things. Put it this way, do you REALLY want your better ideas off the ground, or is this dance just something you want to put in between your best ideas because you're afraid it won't work? 

If you have a big idea, why waste time around smaller ones? Is it just that vague that you can't really sell it at all? Or do you feel you can't convince this fanbase to buy into it? 

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:iconchickenkai:
ChickenKai Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2014
Smaller works are good base to train and find new techniques and ideas. Big projects and big dreams are all good, but no one should not fall too much in love any idea one products since it can evolve something better in the future.
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:iconmyrksuki:
MyrkSuki Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2014
True, from a conceptual standpoint, there's always room for improvement. But if all he's doing is waiting on money, just ask for it. 
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:icondragonrider1227:
Dragonrider1227 Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
You don't want my money unless i'm paying for something?
:icontakemymoneyplz:
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:iconianprice:
IanPrice Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
You have a common misconception about Kickstarter. In fact, you can't go on there without a finished prototype - or an established record of completed work, and even then, you probably need some preliminary work done on the project at hand - and expect to really make your goal. Your ethic of doing the work first would work well on Kickstarter/Patreon/etc.
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:iconbarbecuediguana:
BarbecuedIguana Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
I don't disapprove of kickstarter, but in my life time is limited and I'd rather spend it creating something rather than trying to build up interest in creating something.
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:iconroguekitty05:
RogueKitty05 Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
Can't agree more, I see it bleeding into other situations as well. When I was a kid if our Baseball team, or whatever the case may be, was in need of cash to go on a trip, or whatever, we sold food, we washed cars, we did something to raise money. Now, I see these people just standing around by the road, or at businesses just asking for hand outs. I don't get it...
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:iconphilbrush:
Philbrush Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
I am of two minds on kick starter type sites...in a way it works similar to any fined product but generally consists of small amounts of funding from many more backers.

The major difference is that backers would generally see some % of the profits, so I would personally try and get some sort of bonus out there for the backers as soon as the time period was up. 

If it were a graphic novel for example, I would think something like a concept art book or something, which pretty much means you would have to self fund to a certain degree!
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:iconsyscomatic:
SyscoMatic Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
I approve of this. All of it.
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:iconchunkymonkey5:
Chunkymonkey5 Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
Very well said. :)
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:icongo77go:
go77go Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
I understand your point. I feel it is kinda closed mind.
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:iconrobertmacquarrie1:
RobertMacQuarrie1 Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
Certainly, there are those who will abuse the system, and just use these projects as a shortcut for their own inadequacies.  And anyone who has started a Kickstarter will tell you, it's hard work, something you need to keep at every single day and isn't just a "Advertise here and get free money" option.  AND there have been those that have been burned by Kickstarter, with the people who advertised for the funds never producing anything of quality.  So, yeah, a lot of downsides.

But I think there are a lot of benefits too.  It allows people to create content on their own without having to go jump through a lot of hoops.  It gives more power to smaller groups to produce content they want to see, rather than offer creations via committe. 

If crowdfunding isn't for you, then that's OK.  But I think it's something that should be regarded as one tool in the bucket, rather than an easy ride for people wanting a quick buck. 
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:icondeepdark00-0:
DeepDark00-0 Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
That is an angle to it I hadn't really considered.
Gets me thinking, for sure.
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:iconleonkatlovre:
LeonKatlovre Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
no matter how many "free" things I find, if I feel like I can support something I love, I'll gladly buy it.

for example, I've used Sai a lot but it was a hacked version a friend gave me, personally this feels wrong to me so I'm buying the license directly from the official website, to support developers of this.

My favorite bands? catching up to their music would take quite a slice of my wallet so to make up for this, I'm buying my favorite albums slowly and surely.

Your work? I have bookmarked the stuff I wanna buy and will buy eventually. Little stuff like that is my way of dealing with things. I like something? I'll find a way to support it. I do agree to some extent of course, whichever works better for all as long as you get something back for the support. Something about "free" always feels off to me.
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:iconmattaui:
mattaui Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Not everything needs, benefits from or should be crowdfunded, there's no doubt about that. As long as there's transparency, responsibility and (most important of all) a third party to help prevent abuse and other issues, then crowdfunding is simply yet another way the internet is helping to disintermediate what used to be a much more complex process.

But the more niche and particular something is, the more I think it benefits from that support. Most of what I've backed have been resurrected or revised games (Ogre, Traveller, Wasteland 2, Shadowrun and others), but I've also thrown a small amount of money at smaller and newer independents who seem to have their act together. I've never seen this as anything that resembled entitlement - it was a lot more like an author getting an advance to write a book, or paying for a piece of commissioned art.

I will say that in a couple of cases I had some KS projects that failed to deliver but aren't technically in breach, but they're products I spent a total of $15 on. I've had bad drinks cost me almost that much, bad meals much worse, so I don't feel like I've been horribly wronged. Or for a more apt comparison, I've had some commissioned art pieces that weren't necessarily my favorite, either.

So I'd totally throw money towards a crowdfunded project of yours. :)
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:iconchwen-hoou:
Chwen-Hoou Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
I don't mind crowdfunding just as long as its not being abused by individuals and corporations.
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:iconrandommode:
Randommode Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014  Professional Digital Artist
People tell me the same, I have to agree with you Phil 
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:iconbadmillennial:
BadMillennial Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
There's a limit to my goodwill; that being said, I'd gladly give a couple quid to those in need, or just for the hell of it.
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:icontirusr:
tirusr Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
I really like what you had to say here. I get crowd funding and believe in it. I think it's just as valid as your method.

I get more upset by web-comics that ask for donations. There are plenty of great web comics out there that profit purely from ad revenue and/or from digital book sales. I don't see the need for a comic to try and thrive off donations. Especially after they MAKE it so to speak. All with the 'promise' of more content. Some provide... some don't. Kickstarter in theory at least puts you legally obligated to fulfill that promise.
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:iconblazedriver:
BlazeDriver Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
You're one of those people that people would donate to just to donate to though.
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:icondoomsday-device:
Doomsday-Device Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
What an outdated notion you have. If everybody had your screwed up perspective, entrepreneurship wouldn't exist at all. 
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:icontalekeeperny:
TalekeeperNy Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014  Professional General Artist
I completely understand where you are coming from, and I find myself conflicted about this very kind of thing.  Like you, I prefer people pay for something I can give them; clients who insist on paying me before I am finished drive me mad.  No one buys a car while it is sitting on a frame and four wheels alone, after all.  Your mindset shows discipline and can often instill a stronger sense of....well, I suppose "loyalty" with your fans/customers, if you will.

And as others have mentioned, there are some advantages to things like Kickstarter and even something as quaint as a "tip jar" for the artist's PayPal.  Ever since I finally wandered over to your personal site and spent an entire Saturday just gorging myself on your work (eww, that sounded better in my head), I have wished I could have at least given you a wee bit extra as a "thanks, keep up the excellent work" tip.  But even before this journal, I sensed you may be of this school of thought.  And since I couldn't give you a little extra to assist with bills or maybe buy you a nice meal out, I did the next best thing (which was going to happen regardless): I shoved my husband over to your site too. :D

What can I say?  We both have a weakness for alluring ladies and fantastic storytelling - not necessarily in that order.  Do what motivates you and feels right to you.  It is inspiring to see someone with the integrity you have.
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:iconkedamono-mizudori:
kedamono-mizudori Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
Which is why I'm a happy patron of both your smaller products and you bigger ones. Keep on doing what your doing.
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:iconczarkaiser:
CzarKaiser Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
you got a good point, i never saw that way until now though i can see what you mean now.
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:iconthe-quill-warrior:
The-Quill-Warrior Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014  Student Digital Artist
Yahtzee from Zero Punctuation seems to have the same opinion of Kickstarter as well.

He believes that "no one knows what they want until they got it", and that "Kickstarter is built on that stubborn desire to wallow in a nostalgic comfort zone like a dolphin in mother's homemade custard".
And he's not entirely wrong.

Listening to solid arguments like these is making me seriously reconsider about starting my own Kickstarter in the future.
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:iconseikyuu:
seikyuu Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
Maybe you should get a skateboard and do a jump over all the people who wanna donate. That should spread your message! :D
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:iconunrelent:
UNRELENT Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
You don't want to take my money unless I'm paying for something?
You Sir, are awesome. More people need your work ethics.
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:iconconnorcat:
ConnorCat Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
I understand the need for Kickstarter campaigns for some things, but I've also been hearing that campaigns can, in fact, go too well.

To elaborate on that, I've heard of a couple of small video game studios/developers who exceeded their goals in donations and decided to make the game even "better". This went well until they blew through all the money and couldn't continue production. So it's easy to feel obligated to make your project bigger than what it should be.
Reply
:iconsoulbrotha:
Soulbrotha Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I get your point, especially with the sense of entitlement. However, I do feel that kickstarter sites are legitimate option for individuals or small groups who want to undertake a large project. Basically, it's a simplified version of what businesses have been doing for years, pandering to their target demographic for support to ease the startup costs associated with project. In this case, I really think the onus is on the fanbase to evaluate these requests and decide whether it is someone with an established high quality of work who has rewarding product to offer for your investment or someone who just just came out of the blue with palm out saying, "Bro, I got this cool idea. Give me $5,000 so I can make my dream come true. By the way, I'll give you a keychain or something for your $100 pledge." Unfortunately, it's the latter more often than the former. I look at the majority of these types of requests and instantly think GTFO. Very few seem worth investing in.

I do agree that your model of creating small projects and working your way up. I just self-published my first comic book. It wasn't an insanely expensive endeavor by any means, but I did it myself and all the funding came from my earning from my day job. But let's say that I teamed up with a group of friends to do something a little on a large scale, like produce an animated series. I don't necessarily think it's wrong to solicit for investors, but before asking for a dime I would hope that our group (or it's members on an individual basis) had established enough of a rapport with our fanbase that a request for funding would be justified. Second, I don't think any project should be 100% funded by others. This goes back researching requests before supporting them, but I would never support a guy who says "I need you (collectively) to give me $5,000 for my project, but I haven't had enough confidence to invest any of my own hard-earned cash into said project." Again, that's a GTFO situation.
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:iconfaogwolf:
faogwolf Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
i'll always like the way you see things jolly jack... and this is not an exception, i really like what you do... and the way you do to complete your objectives... in this case, as you said, only giving the people the product, not an expectation... 

but... i think there some people that really are eager to help you... as you said a little extra help... so, i'm just saying, but you could put a tips jar somewhere in your page... 
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:iconguybcaps:
GuyBcaps Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
Nobody produces a complete work first, then gets paid. You get paid while you're doing the work. Or you get an advance, then you do the work.

Traditionally game developers only get to make games if the publishers fund them first. This is really no different then Kickstarter. You get given X numbers of dollars, then you set a budget and make the product. No sane company makes a complete product first and then hopes they get paid latter.
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:iconludux:
LuDux Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014  Professional Traditional Artist
So... do the work first, and then kickstart?
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:iconbiasedeyes:
biasedeyes Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
Patreon, at least, is more of a 'pay as you produce' sort of deal (not so different from the sale of any intellectual property, just more instantaneous)... but they take a hefty (~5%) cut for 'administrative costs'.
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:icondarkdragondave:
DarkDragonDave Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Only Kickstarter I ever contributed to was Skullgirls. Initially it was because hey, free TF2 hats. And then that fell through.

But hey, at least my name's in the credits.
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:icondarkdragondave:
DarkDragonDave Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
And by Kickstarter, I mean IndieGoGo.
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:iconnightshadered:
NightShadered Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
I personally don't believe you should payed for doing nothing, but the most successful kickstarters and patreons don't get there by doing nothing. If you are some no name asking to fund your dream project, the chances are you won't even make over a hundred dollars.

Successful internet artists and other content creators often spend YEARS building up a reputation by giving out content for free content like videos and webcomics .They've done their work by putting out their stuff and giving people what they want.  I can not fault any of them for politely asking people for money when they know they have an audience of thousands.

This is exactly the same as a street performer putting an empty cup next to their chair as they give you free entertainment; except that Kickstarter and Patreon tell you exactly what they plan to do with that money if the creator is trustworthy (and they have to be trustworthy or else they will lose their entire internet audience).
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:iconmspaintdog:
MSpaintdog Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Look, man...count up the pages of your best work. Ask around to see what it would realistically cost to print a graphic novel/art book that size. Tell people 'Send me X amount, I'll get it printed and mail it to you. Keep it under 200$ or so, I'm in.
Reply
:icondraggah-n:
Draggah-N Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2014
Your view that in order to get money you should do the work first isn't archaic, but what you're missing is that you already HAVE done the work. You post artwork all the time, and obviously people derive value from that. In some way it enriches their lives. When they ask, “Have you heard of Patreon?” or,
“Why doesn’t your site have a Donate button?” what they are really asking is "How can we pay for the work you've already done for us?" Don't fall for this "Get a job you bum!" BS, because it IS BS. If people want to help you do what you do then LET them. It doesn't make you a bum, it makes you someone who gets paid for the work he does.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMj_P_…
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